Tool Database and Sienci Tools

As a new user, I was struggling with selecting the right tools for various jobs. First I wanted to select appropriate tools and there is a bit of trial and error as to which tools to use. But then I also wanted to select tools I own. No point in selecting a tool only to discover you don’t have one of those.

So I created new folders in the tool database for tools I own. I wanted to copy tools that are listed in the default database and also the downloadable database from Sienci, over to my folders to avoid having to painstakingly add all the fields for bits that are already in there.

Interestingly, at the bottom there is an icon to “copy the selected tool / group” so that sounded promising. But once copied, I can’t seem to find a way to paste it into a different folder! Surely if there is a copy there needs to be a paste! Maybe I’m just missing where it’s located.

On another note, I’m very unimpressed with the Sienci database they have for download. I purchased the “Starter Kit” with my machine, I don’t think there is one single bit in the starter kit that is in their database. I also purchased the “Chamfer set” and there doesn’t seem to be any of those in the db either. Finally I also purchased the 30 degree engraving v-pack set and none of those are there either.

So the copy and paste issue might not be as big of a problem since it looks like I need to manually input all the bits I have anyway. Not exactly sure where to find all the info for the screens, some of it is in the bit information in the purchase page, but the feeds, speeds, plunge rates, pass depth, stepover, etc I’m not sure where to get. I guess look at similar bits to get some ideas and “make something up!” :slight_smile:

Any help for a struggling newbie would be greatly appreciated.

@gabo I won’t get into the quality of the Sienci tool database as I have never used it or any other company’s tool database.

As to copy and paste within VCarve, I use the export and import feature. I highlight the group/tool that I want to copy and export it. VCarve asks for a file name. Then, I highlight the group where I want to add these tools and click on import. I choose the “import” option in the popup. That’s it.
If you have not done so already, you should back up your tool database before mucking about with it. You can copy it to a location on your local PC and/or to the Vectric cloud.

Thanks, that is a reasonable work around. Good idea on backing up the database.

If you don’t use the databases, what do you use? Do you manually put in all your tools? If so, where do you get all the info?

After my very first job went horribly wrong, I’m a bit paranoid about the speeds, feeds, and rates of things. My first job was surfacing my spoilboard. Easy enough, right. I went to youtube and found the video of the guy from Sienci giving tips and instructions on surfacing. He gave speeds and feeds, and said not to use the dust collector as it wouldn’t clear the sides.

So I proceeded to do it exactly like he said. Unfortunately I had a 1.5” surfacing bit from the Sienci starter kit and he was using the 22mm bit that Sienci also sells. Setting up the surfacing with my bit with his recommended settings (which were for the 22mm) bit caused my board to almost catch on fire!

I started the job, watched it run for about 15 min and all looked good. So I stepped out of the shop for about 15 min then came back to check on it. My shop was completely full of smoke, the smoke alarm was blaring, the top wasn’t on fire but it was smoking. I shut the machine down, pretty much ruined my surfacing bit, not to mention the surfacing job. hahaha, it was as they say, a learning experience!

After that experience, I am keen on getting things right in the Vcarve Pro database to try to make sure that doesn’t happen again!

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@gabo Scary. Lots of videos on CNC fires. I rarely leave it unattended and certainly not for a long period. Luckily you weren’t using your dust shoe. Can you imagine embers being sucked into a bin full of saw dust?

@gabo To answer your first question, yes, I manually enter the bits as I buy them. I looked at tool databases such as whiteside and amana in the early years of my cnc ownership. It seemed crazy to me to add dozens of bits that I didn’t own and never would. Adding them manually is not a big job since one bit can be a copy of another, with some settings and specs changed. Plus, it’s a good way to learn more about the settings.
Feeds and speeds settings are more dicey. The chart that Sienci has is a good start. It is very conservative, which, to me means, no burning and infrequent broken bits. However, much of this is trial and error. I tend to start things out slow. I can always speed things up in gSender. I make note of any new on-the-fly settings that work, and make changes to my tool database accordingly.
I should add that I am a hobbyist. I’m not in production mode where every minute wasted is a dollar lost. I design my projects in Vcarve with my environment in mind.
I can well imagine that using settings for the 22mm bit on an 1 1/2" bit would cause issues. If my math is correct (no betting on that), the rim speed of the 22mm bit running at 15000 rpm is ~38mph. The rim speed of a 1 1/2" bit running at the same 15000 rpm is ~67 mph. So, just less than twice as fast. There is no way that we can expect to use the same settings for the two bits and get similar results.

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Thanks, yes I guess adding them manually is probably a good way to burn things into my brain. We got here from the same thoughts, why have a bunch of things in there I don’t own and probably never will.

I’m figuring it out slowly! I’m good at reading and learning, so I’ll get there.

Yes, that 1.5 inch bit is way different. The instructions for the 22mm bit were actually to run it at 18,000 rpm… ZOOM!

Another thing I learned in that episode, is to be careful with what you think is conservative. I would have typically thought a slower feed rate would be more conservative. But in this case a slow feed rate actually worked against me. For that bit you gotta take the RPMs down and get the feed rate up to prevent it from burning.

I wound up finishing my surfacing with that bit. But the bit isn’t very good any more, so now I’m in the market for another surfacing bit, although not a critical purchase at the moment.

Onward!

@gabo What machine do you have?
Feeds and speeds work together. Feeding too slowly for the rpm will burn. Trying to take too big a bite will burn. Some woods, like cherry, burn if you look at it crossly.
You’ll figure it out. Just keep in mind that none of this is an exact science.

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I know how you feel. I have asked Sienci directly to please update their videos since so many who are new to the machines generally go to those videos first. I have made a report and commented on their official review questions they sent me and still after all this time they still have not done this very important thing. My hope is that they will update their videos regularly. Even better would be a separate video per machine type especially for the rotary accessory. But welcome to this really well built machine and I hope it brings you a lot of satisfaction in the future.

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@gwilki I have an Altmill 4x4 with the 1.5kw spindle. Yes, I’m quickly learning some things about feeds and speeds. Which is why I’m keen on getting the right information in the Vcarve Pro tool database for the bits I have. If all that is correct, then it mostly takes care of the speeds and feeds, with a bit of tweaking from the sliders after you start a project.

@Karver_One Yes, they do need to stay on top of their videos. Or at least give better info in them about some things. For instance, I built my spoil board to their instructions with the Sienci purchased T slots. For the 4x4 that means cutting a piece of MDF to 51.75 inches and screwing it down, then cutting the remaining piece in strips 6 1/8 wide and placing them on top. I also have the dust collector from Sienci. So all my set up is all using Sienci product and to Sienci’s recommendation. So the video from Sienci on doing spoilboard surfacing says to take your dust collector off as it will hit the sides during the surfacing. I didn’t even test it (my fault) because why would the info be wrong if I’m doing everything to their instructions? So I make an incredible mess in my shop, dust everywhere that took me hours to clean up. Then I discover that actually my dust hood, if turned to the front, doesn’t impact the sides at all!! I could easily have used my dust collector. The video clearly needs to point this out and encourage the user to measure and see if they can use the dust collector. Likewise the video needs to focus on how to go about doing it with different bits, where to find info for your bit, and how to change things to accommodate different bits.

As you say, every beginner that gets one of these machines is going to go looking for how to do this to get started and they aren’t going to know these things. That comes with experience, which we have none when we first start.

Sorry to go on that rant, it’s just a bit annoying. But yes, it is an incredible machine and I’m making a lot of progress on conquering it.

@gabo Keep in mind that, when entering information into the VCarve tool database, it is material specific. If you are going to depend on that information to keep you out of trouble, you need to have those material-specific specifications set. And, you need to be sure that, when creating your toolpaths and choosing your bits, you select the correct bit and material.

@gwilki Yes, I’m trying to do that. But as you have said, it’s not an exact science, so trying to get the info correct for the various types of material is especially hard. Even Sienci and IDC Woodcraft (they have a downloadable db with their bits in it) are wildly different for similar bits. And both of them mostly use the same settings for “softwood” vs “hardwood.” I haven’t look much at the Aluminum or Plastic settings as right now I’m just focusing on wood projects.

I know it’s not an exact science, but it is the same for everyone. This seems like work that everyone that has one of these machines has to conquer. In my mind, without really good information on every bit/material you own, it’s sort of like everyone is reinventing the wheel. I’m surprised there isn’t better info available for this. It seems like every bit you buy should come with speed/feed info for that bit.

@gabo With respect, IMHO you are asking too much. It is not the “same for everyone”. Your machine will handle feeds and speeds that mine will not. Different manufacturers will always take different approaches to their feeds and speeds charts. Some of those differences are because they, too, test on machines of differing capabilities. Some of the differences are because the ideal chip load for a bit is a range, not one specific value. @TDA is the one who could really explain this. He is expert in tooling. Hint, hint, Tom. :grinning_face:
I believe that more traditional woodworking is an excellent comparison to this discussion. Feed rates through a table saw, a jointer, a band saw or a router table are controlled exclusively by the user. The user MUST learn to listen to the machine and examine the results and moderate the feed rate accordingly. I cannot push a 6/4 piece of hard maple through my 1.5 HP table saw at anywhere near the speed that I can push that same piece of maple through the 5HP slider in the shop. There are no charts to tell me what the ideal speed for each of those machines is. It comes from experience. I can incorporate more agressive blades or narrow kerf blades into the equation, but I still need to watch and listen.
To me, the CNC is no different, except that things like feeds rates are not dependant on me pushing material through a spinning bit and the speed is changeable. (On the other hand, pushing that same material through the same spinning bit on my router table is completely in my control.)
In terms of “re-inventing the wheel”, that need not be the case. There are hundreds of Altmill users here. There are more Long Mill users. There is nothing stopping any of them from posting their feeds and speeds for specific tooling in specific material. None of them need to rely on the tool manufacturer to do that for them. There is a “new wisdom” category specifically for that purpose. I encourage everyone here to post things like feeds and speeds that worked for them, identifying the specific tool that they used, the material that they used and even the toolpath that they chose in their CAM application.
I will get off my soapbox now. I sincerely hope that this does not come across as criticism, @gabo . That is not my intention. I’m sure that you will learn these things as your experience increases. You certainly have an excellent machine on which to start your journed. I’m jealous. :grinning_face:

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Thanks for that! Great information. No offense taken at all.

Actually looking through the forum, I found an old thread about all this. You and others found some online calculators that gave some info. Unfortunately all the calculators in that thread are no longer working. Except G-Wizard, which you can still get, but the original developer of that tool sadly passed away and there are no more updates to it.

However, there are a few new sites with calculators. One of them is here, https://cncfeeds.com/

I need to put through some bits in that calculator, look at the results, and compare them to the calculations provided by Sienci in their nice document about how to calculate these things. I also think there was a site you linked in the previous thread with a ton of info on how all this works and how to calculate it. I would need to do that to feel confident in the online calculator. If I can’t feel confident in that, I may build my own spreadsheet.

I’m sure with all this info and knowing my machine’s capabilities, I’ll come to a “process” for how to evaluate any bits I have and come up with good starting points for what to enter in the Vcarve database. Thanks a bunch for all your help! And great idea about posting in the “new wisdom” category.

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@gabo Coincidentally, this video just popped up in my feed. As usual, Kyle does an excellent job.

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I mostly am in agreement about the difficulties surfacing bits give. Mostly because it is a bit that does not fibe my intuition. I own a longmill with a palm router so I always go back to the question :”how would I use this bit if I ran it by hand.” Surfacing just does not compute for palm routers are primarily used for champers using a bit with a baring. Although bared bits are not a thing on a cnc, I still have some intuition on at least feeds. They are not something I care about using a hand router, as long as the router doesn’t sound as if it can’t handle the stress, I’m good. So starting off a wee slow and upping the feed rate by ear is to me a good way to get a feel for the feed rate one can push a bit through the material

Spinning speeds is looking at how the material reacts.. slower with larger bits, faster with smaller.

Looking at what comes off a cutter can give an idea on how close you are doing the right thing. Is it dust, the spin rate can be reduced or the feed rate increased.

A hand held router is an eye/ear coordination that cannot be a precise calculated number, so I don’t care for a fixed number on my cnc either. It’s like using a v-bit on a vcarve tool path. It uses a fixed feed and speed while it’s cutting diameter is a variable set by the maximum depth it is allowed to carve in one pass.

There is a wide range of feeds and speeds that will get you there without breaking a bit. One can stress over it or not. I choose not to and just listen to the router, eyeball the chips and sniff the shop.

I however do use mostly sienci’s database as a starting point, over the more aggressive IDC one. (Though the v-bits and engraving bits in the sienci database are the more aggressive ones, I feel they ought to be, to achieve chips over dust.)

Material type and even orientation (endgrain can be engraved way more aggressive than pulling one through tough fibery hardwood ) Engraving bits are the ones I break the most , due to using them more or less like vcarve bits. A router will not moan when they are used wrong.

So I’m with Grant, but prolly even less consistent. I am more or less always freewheeling feeds’n’speeds by mood.

@gwilki Great video Grant. Good news, I have avoided most of the mistakes listed. I bought the right machine, I also purchase great software and have spent quite a bit of time learning it and I’ve got the “speed and feed” piece on the run. My piece holding is good and I have my machine calibrated and I have a good handle on zeroing things. I’ve surfaced and flattened my spoilboard, albeit with some excitement. That video made me actually feel pretty good, I haven’t really made many mistakes other than just the learning process. And that’s all been on a pile of scrap wood that I saved just for this purpose.

@Spamming_Eddie That was a really good discussion. I do have a lot of shop experience and have built many cool things. So I’m very familiar with using hand tools and hand power tools. So yes, I will continue getting my tool database in Vcarve set up as good as I can, but then also use my eyes and ears to tweak things as I go. One nice thing about the tool database in Vcarve is they have a “notes section” so I can add in notes about various wood types and things I’ve done.

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I am surprised no one mentioned this person, Garrett Fromme. He has a very good database, bits and other items. https://idcwoodcraft.com/

@Condor00 Both @gabo and @Spamming_Eddie mentioned his tool database in their posts.

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Usual preface, I’m with PreciseBits. So while I try to only post general information take everything I say with the understanding that I have a bias.

So… This might be more than you are currently looking for. But I’ll try to give some basics on how this all work.

The first thing I would say is throw “feed and speed” out the window. It’s not really what matters but rather a “short cut” to get to what really matters. The things that really matter in this are chipload and surface speed. Chipload is probably the most important factor in milling overall and is required to understand a lot of the other factors. So I guess let’s start there.

In simple terms chipload is the “width” of the chip you are cutting per flute per rotation. Or a sometimes easier way to think of it is it’s the amount the CNC is moving “forward” (in X/Y) per flute per rotation. The reason it’s so important is that there’s a minimum chipload per material and tool combination that you have to hit to not “rub” (using the tool as glorified sandpaper and generating a ton of extra heat and cutting forces). While at the same time it’s also one of the 3 factors that are responsible for cutting forces that the tool, CNC, and material have to resist. You’ve already seen some effects of this by burning the wood. Too little chipload = too high of heat.

Surface speed is the rotational velocity of the edge of cutter. There’s a lot of wiggle room in things like wood for it. In general though the higher the surface speed the higher the searing force for the same cutter. However, you can get to a point where the surface speed get too high for the material. This will damage both the tool and material regardless of the chipload (feed).

I should probably also talk about cutting forces here. The machine, tool, and material have to resist the cutting forces. they increase with the cubic material removed per flute. So the stepover, chipload, and pass depth all proportionally increase the cutting forces. Though not always in the same direction. You will get different artifacts in your cut depending on which you exceed. If it the material it will start to rip material out instead of cut. If it’s the tool or machine it will typically “bend” out of the intended cut path. Eventually enough of any of those will break the tools as it radically changes the the functional chipload or just straight bend the tool to the breaking point.

So with those out of the way, how do we actually calculate a usable chipload and surface speed? It’s complicated… At a fundamental level what we need is a chipload that is “cutting”, a surface speed that is under the damaging point, and cutting forces that are within our tolerance for the machine, tool, and material. These are also all effected by other factors like tool geometry, runout, and acceleration. There are some “rules of thumb” that can be used or sometimes recommendations from manufacturers. However, how those are calculated and what they are shooting at changes how useful they are in the real world. e.g. are you going to go for the most rigid machine you can find with perfect everything and the feed and speed numbers right before the tool breaks? That will give you a very impressive number… But realistically no one will ever be to use it. Do you instead go with the most conservate number trying to account for every possible penalty and give a number everyone could use? Well, that will leave a lot on the table, eat the tools, and give less than a desirable cuts for most of your users.

So how to get usable numbers… If we are talking about wood and kind of a random assortment of cutters we can use some basic rules of thumb and scale from there. The first thing would be what is our minimum chipload? Generally speaking the softer and more flexible the material the larger this has to be. Made better or worse by some of those “other factors” (see below). For domestic hardwood with decent tooling at least 0.1250" in diameter I’d say you are usually pretty safe starting out with a 0.002" (0.051mm) chipload. You can scale this as you go but other than a straight up metal cutter this will probably be at least cutting a chip with most tools. For RPM we have a huge range depending on the tool. For most decent tools we should be good to at least 800 SFM. This can scale up a LOT based on the tooling. But this will give us a starting point that should be safe. So let’s say that this is a 0.2500" 2 flute cutter. What that works out to is an RPM of ~12,000 and a feed of 48 IPM / 1219mm/m (RPM = (3.82 * SFM) / Diameter) (Feed = RPM * Chipload * Flutes). The best way to scale up from here is to actually test in YOUR material and YOUR machine.

The best way to do that in my opinion is to start off with a low pass depth (1 diameter or less) and test by scaling your chipload (feed). You will hit a limit of either the material failing (e.g. tear out) or cutting forces (machine or tool deflecting (bending)). If you aren’t at the deflection failure point then you can scale your cutting depth. Once you get this number back off at least 10% to allow for the extra cutting forces that will result from tool wear over time. This is what almost all production shops do but they will lock down a material supplier and tool manufacturer to reduce those variables.

Now I want to discuss some of those “other factors” that have to be considered. This is also why there is limited value in my opinion on thing like feed and speed charts or calculators other than maybe getting a baseline number (if they aren’t targeting a machine WAY outside of what you are using).

The first one is runout. This is how much the tool is spinning of the central axis of the spindle. Or how much the tool is wobbling. The reason that this matters is that in multi-flute tools this changes your chipload. It more or less adds and subtracts from different flutes chiploads at different point in the cut. Let’s use this in an example. Let’s say that we have a 2 flute cutter that we are going to run at 10,000 RPM and a 0.002" (0.051mm) chipload. That comes out to a feed of 40 IPM (1016mm/m). Now let’s say we have a total of 0.001" runout. That will make us cut a 0.001" (0.025mm) chipload on one flute and 0.003" (0.076mm) chipload on another (for at least part of the cut). That means that we will be simultaneously cutting at 20IPM (508mm/m) and 60IPM (1524mm/m) with our programed 40IPM (1016mm/m) cut. In some cases this will be okay and there’s enough room to absorb these changes. But it needs to be considered or you can end up with some really weird unexplainable results (cutting both too fast and too slow at the same time).

Material itself is also one of those other factors. It’s vastly more complicated than “hard” and “soft” wood. What really matters isn’t just the hardness of the wood but the component that the tree integrates into the wood, how well the wood stays together, the moisture content, grain tightness, etc. These will all change how the wood cuts. Again though, there’s some big margins in wood. So as long as you aren’t on the edge of something or trying to hit the peak of optimization it’s probably not going to be the biggest factor. However, it would be a good idea to look up things like the Janka value and try to keep an eye on the moisture content so that you can compensate you apply similar known working values to similar material.

Tool geometry is another issue. And honestly a very frustrating one from a user standpoint. There are TONS of variables that you are never going to see listed that effect things like the minimum chipload or max surface speed. These are things like rake, edge radius, helix, flute relief, core, etc. There’s also big differences in carbide grades even inside the same ISO grade. These all fundamentally change how a tool cuts. e.g. a tool with a lower edge radius and higher rake will cut soft material with a lower minimum chipload and produce less force for the same chipload. However, the skinner you get with this the more fragile the tool gets and the more likely that it doesn’t last in cutting say metal. There are some of these that you can check for with your own eyes. Things like helix (flute twist) are pretty easy to tell. And the tighter the helix gets the more force it is applying up or down. One of the big factors here is geometry that changes tool rigidity. The simple version of that is the more material remove the weaker the tool. So the tighter the helix, the deeper the cutting depth, and the deeper the flutes, the weaker the tool.

One of the other ones that’s often overlooked is your hold down method. Again if you are within margins you are fine. However, consider this with chipload. Anything that allows the material to “flex” or move a significant percent of your chipload can vary your chipload by that amount. As such I’m not a big fan of things like double sided tape as they tend to allow more flex than I’m comfortable with.

I’m going to end this here as this is already a massive text wall and I’m out of time at the moment. There’s more things and I can go into specifics if there’s desire for it. Let me know if there’s something you want expanded on or I can help with.

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@TDA Thanks much for taking my “hint”, John. This is a lot to take in so one reading is not sufficient for me.