As a new user, I was struggling with selecting the right tools for various jobs. First I wanted to select appropriate tools and there is a bit of trial and error as to which tools to use. But then I also wanted to select tools I own. No point in selecting a tool only to discover you don’t have one of those.
So I created new folders in the tool database for tools I own. I wanted to copy tools that are listed in the default database and also the downloadable database from Sienci, over to my folders to avoid having to painstakingly add all the fields for bits that are already in there.
Interestingly, at the bottom there is an icon to “copy the selected tool / group” so that sounded promising. But once copied, I can’t seem to find a way to paste it into a different folder! Surely if there is a copy there needs to be a paste! Maybe I’m just missing where it’s located.
On another note, I’m very unimpressed with the Sienci database they have for download. I purchased the “Starter Kit” with my machine, I don’t think there is one single bit in the starter kit that is in their database. I also purchased the “Chamfer set” and there doesn’t seem to be any of those in the db either. Finally I also purchased the 30 degree engraving v-pack set and none of those are there either.
So the copy and paste issue might not be as big of a problem since it looks like I need to manually input all the bits I have anyway. Not exactly sure where to find all the info for the screens, some of it is in the bit information in the purchase page, but the feeds, speeds, plunge rates, pass depth, stepover, etc I’m not sure where to get. I guess look at similar bits to get some ideas and “make something up!”
Any help for a struggling newbie would be greatly appreciated.
@gabo I won’t get into the quality of the Sienci tool database as I have never used it or any other company’s tool database.
As to copy and paste within VCarve, I use the export and import feature. I highlight the group/tool that I want to copy and export it. VCarve asks for a file name. Then, I highlight the group where I want to add these tools and click on import. I choose the “import” option in the popup. That’s it.
If you have not done so already, you should back up your tool database before mucking about with it. You can copy it to a location on your local PC and/or to the Vectric cloud.
Thanks, that is a reasonable work around. Good idea on backing up the database.
If you don’t use the databases, what do you use? Do you manually put in all your tools? If so, where do you get all the info?
After my very first job went horribly wrong, I’m a bit paranoid about the speeds, feeds, and rates of things. My first job was surfacing my spoilboard. Easy enough, right. I went to youtube and found the video of the guy from Sienci giving tips and instructions on surfacing. He gave speeds and feeds, and said not to use the dust collector as it wouldn’t clear the sides.
So I proceeded to do it exactly like he said. Unfortunately I had a 1.5” surfacing bit from the Sienci starter kit and he was using the 22mm bit that Sienci also sells. Setting up the surfacing with my bit with his recommended settings (which were for the 22mm) bit caused my board to almost catch on fire!
I started the job, watched it run for about 15 min and all looked good. So I stepped out of the shop for about 15 min then came back to check on it. My shop was completely full of smoke, the smoke alarm was blaring, the top wasn’t on fire but it was smoking. I shut the machine down, pretty much ruined my surfacing bit, not to mention the surfacing job. hahaha, it was as they say, a learning experience!
After that experience, I am keen on getting things right in the Vcarve Pro database to try to make sure that doesn’t happen again!
@gabo Scary. Lots of videos on CNC fires. I rarely leave it unattended and certainly not for a long period. Luckily you weren’t using your dust shoe. Can you imagine embers being sucked into a bin full of saw dust?
@gabo To answer your first question, yes, I manually enter the bits as I buy them. I looked at tool databases such as whiteside and amana in the early years of my cnc ownership. It seemed crazy to me to add dozens of bits that I didn’t own and never would. Adding them manually is not a big job since one bit can be a copy of another, with some settings and specs changed. Plus, it’s a good way to learn more about the settings.
Feeds and speeds settings are more dicey. The chart that Sienci has is a good start. It is very conservative, which, to me means, no burning and infrequent broken bits. However, much of this is trial and error. I tend to start things out slow. I can always speed things up in gSender. I make note of any new on-the-fly settings that work, and make changes to my tool database accordingly.
I should add that I am a hobbyist. I’m not in production mode where every minute wasted is a dollar lost. I design my projects in Vcarve with my environment in mind.
I can well imagine that using settings for the 22mm bit on an 1 1/2" bit would cause issues. If my math is correct (no betting on that), the rim speed of the 22mm bit running at 15000 rpm is ~38mph. The rim speed of a 1 1/2" bit running at the same 15000 rpm is ~67 mph. So, just less than twice as fast. There is no way that we can expect to use the same settings for the two bits and get similar results.
Thanks, yes I guess adding them manually is probably a good way to burn things into my brain. We got here from the same thoughts, why have a bunch of things in there I don’t own and probably never will.
I’m figuring it out slowly! I’m good at reading and learning, so I’ll get there.
Yes, that 1.5 inch bit is way different. The instructions for the 22mm bit were actually to run it at 18,000 rpm… ZOOM!
Another thing I learned in that episode, is to be careful with what you think is conservative. I would have typically thought a slower feed rate would be more conservative. But in this case a slow feed rate actually worked against me. For that bit you gotta take the RPMs down and get the feed rate up to prevent it from burning.
I wound up finishing my surfacing with that bit. But the bit isn’t very good any more, so now I’m in the market for another surfacing bit, although not a critical purchase at the moment.
@gabo What machine do you have?
Feeds and speeds work together. Feeding too slowly for the rpm will burn. Trying to take too big a bite will burn. Some woods, like cherry, burn if you look at it crossly.
You’ll figure it out. Just keep in mind that none of this is an exact science.
I know how you feel. I have asked Sienci directly to please update their videos since so many who are new to the machines generally go to those videos first. I have made a report and commented on their official review questions they sent me and still after all this time they still have not done this very important thing. My hope is that they will update their videos regularly. Even better would be a separate video per machine type especially for the rotary accessory. But welcome to this really well built machine and I hope it brings you a lot of satisfaction in the future.
@gwilki I have an Altmill 4x4 with the 1.5kw spindle. Yes, I’m quickly learning some things about feeds and speeds. Which is why I’m keen on getting the right information in the Vcarve Pro tool database for the bits I have. If all that is correct, then it mostly takes care of the speeds and feeds, with a bit of tweaking from the sliders after you start a project.
@Karver_One Yes, they do need to stay on top of their videos. Or at least give better info in them about some things. For instance, I built my spoil board to their instructions with the Sienci purchased T slots. For the 4x4 that means cutting a piece of MDF to 51.75 inches and screwing it down, then cutting the remaining piece in strips 6 1/8 wide and placing them on top. I also have the dust collector from Sienci. So all my set up is all using Sienci product and to Sienci’s recommendation. So the video from Sienci on doing spoilboard surfacing says to take your dust collector off as it will hit the sides during the surfacing. I didn’t even test it (my fault) because why would the info be wrong if I’m doing everything to their instructions? So I make an incredible mess in my shop, dust everywhere that took me hours to clean up. Then I discover that actually my dust hood, if turned to the front, doesn’t impact the sides at all!! I could easily have used my dust collector. The video clearly needs to point this out and encourage the user to measure and see if they can use the dust collector. Likewise the video needs to focus on how to go about doing it with different bits, where to find info for your bit, and how to change things to accommodate different bits.
As you say, every beginner that gets one of these machines is going to go looking for how to do this to get started and they aren’t going to know these things. That comes with experience, which we have none when we first start.
Sorry to go on that rant, it’s just a bit annoying. But yes, it is an incredible machine and I’m making a lot of progress on conquering it.
@gabo Keep in mind that, when entering information into the VCarve tool database, it is material specific. If you are going to depend on that information to keep you out of trouble, you need to have those material-specific specifications set. And, you need to be sure that, when creating your toolpaths and choosing your bits, you select the correct bit and material.
@gwilki Yes, I’m trying to do that. But as you have said, it’s not an exact science, so trying to get the info correct for the various types of material is especially hard. Even Sienci and IDC Woodcraft (they have a downloadable db with their bits in it) are wildly different for similar bits. And both of them mostly use the same settings for “softwood” vs “hardwood.” I haven’t look much at the Aluminum or Plastic settings as right now I’m just focusing on wood projects.
I know it’s not an exact science, but it is the same for everyone. This seems like work that everyone that has one of these machines has to conquer. In my mind, without really good information on every bit/material you own, it’s sort of like everyone is reinventing the wheel. I’m surprised there isn’t better info available for this. It seems like every bit you buy should come with speed/feed info for that bit.
@gabo With respect, IMHO you are asking too much. It is not the “same for everyone”. Your machine will handle feeds and speeds that mine will not. Different manufacturers will always take different approaches to their feeds and speeds charts. Some of those differences are because they, too, test on machines of differing capabilities. Some of the differences are because the ideal chip load for a bit is a range, not one specific value. @TDA is the one who could really explain this. He is expert in tooling. Hint, hint, Tom.
I believe that more traditional woodworking is an excellent comparison to this discussion. Feed rates through a table saw, a jointer, a band saw or a router table are controlled exclusively by the user. The user MUST learn to listen to the machine and examine the results and moderate the feed rate accordingly. I cannot push a 6/4 piece of hard maple through my 1.5 HP table saw at anywhere near the speed that I can push that same piece of maple through the 5HP slider in the shop. There are no charts to tell me what the ideal speed for each of those machines is. It comes from experience. I can incorporate more agressive blades or narrow kerf blades into the equation, but I still need to watch and listen.
To me, the CNC is no different, except that things like feeds rates are not dependant on me pushing material through a spinning bit and the speed is changeable. (On the other hand, pushing that same material through the same spinning bit on my router table is completely in my control.)
In terms of “re-inventing the wheel”, that need not be the case. There are hundreds of Altmill users here. There are more Long Mill users. There is nothing stopping any of them from posting their feeds and speeds for specific tooling in specific material. None of them need to rely on the tool manufacturer to do that for them. There is a “new wisdom” category specifically for that purpose. I encourage everyone here to post things like feeds and speeds that worked for them, identifying the specific tool that they used, the material that they used and even the toolpath that they chose in their CAM application.
I will get off my soapbox now. I sincerely hope that this does not come across as criticism, @gabo . That is not my intention. I’m sure that you will learn these things as your experience increases. You certainly have an excellent machine on which to start your journed. I’m jealous.
Thanks for that! Great information. No offense taken at all.
Actually looking through the forum, I found an old thread about all this. You and others found some online calculators that gave some info. Unfortunately all the calculators in that thread are no longer working. Except G-Wizard, which you can still get, but the original developer of that tool sadly passed away and there are no more updates to it.
However, there are a few new sites with calculators. One of them is here, https://cncfeeds.com/
I need to put through some bits in that calculator, look at the results, and compare them to the calculations provided by Sienci in their nice document about how to calculate these things. I also think there was a site you linked in the previous thread with a ton of info on how all this works and how to calculate it. I would need to do that to feel confident in the online calculator. If I can’t feel confident in that, I may build my own spreadsheet.
I’m sure with all this info and knowing my machine’s capabilities, I’ll come to a “process” for how to evaluate any bits I have and come up with good starting points for what to enter in the Vcarve database. Thanks a bunch for all your help! And great idea about posting in the “new wisdom” category.
I mostly am in agreement about the difficulties surfacing bits give. Mostly because it is a bit that does not fibe my intuition. I own a longmill with a palm router so I always go back to the question :”how would I use this bit if I ran it by hand.” Surfacing just does not compute for palm routers are primarily used for champers using a bit with a baring. Although bared bits are not a thing on a cnc, I still have some intuition on at least feeds. They are not something I care about using a hand router, as long as the router doesn’t sound as if it can’t handle the stress, I’m good. So starting off a wee slow and upping the feed rate by ear is to me a good way to get a feel for the feed rate one can push a bit through the material
Spinning speeds is looking at how the material reacts.. slower with larger bits, faster with smaller.
Looking at what comes off a cutter can give an idea on how close you are doing the right thing. Is it dust, the spin rate can be reduced or the feed rate increased.
A hand held router is an eye/ear coordination that cannot be a precise calculated number, so I don’t care for a fixed number on my cnc either. It’s like using a v-bit on a vcarve tool path. It uses a fixed feed and speed while it’s cutting diameter is a variable set by the maximum depth it is allowed to carve in one pass.
There is a wide range of feeds and speeds that will get you there without breaking a bit. One can stress over it or not. I choose not to and just listen to the router, eyeball the chips and sniff the shop.
I however do use mostly sienci’s database as a starting point, over the more aggressive IDC one. (Though the v-bits and engraving bits in the sienci database are the more aggressive ones, I feel they ought to be, to achieve chips over dust.)
Material type and even orientation (endgrain can be engraved way more aggressive than pulling one through tough fibery hardwood ) Engraving bits are the ones I break the most , due to using them more or less like vcarve bits. A router will not moan when they are used wrong.
So I’m with Grant, but prolly even less consistent. I am more or less always freewheeling feeds’n’speeds by mood.
@gwilki Great video Grant. Good news, I have avoided most of the mistakes listed. I bought the right machine, I also purchase great software and have spent quite a bit of time learning it and I’ve got the “speed and feed” piece on the run. My piece holding is good and I have my machine calibrated and I have a good handle on zeroing things. I’ve surfaced and flattened my spoilboard, albeit with some excitement. That video made me actually feel pretty good, I haven’t really made many mistakes other than just the learning process. And that’s all been on a pile of scrap wood that I saved just for this purpose.
@Spamming_Eddie That was a really good discussion. I do have a lot of shop experience and have built many cool things. So I’m very familiar with using hand tools and hand power tools. So yes, I will continue getting my tool database in Vcarve set up as good as I can, but then also use my eyes and ears to tweak things as I go. One nice thing about the tool database in Vcarve is they have a “notes section” so I can add in notes about various wood types and things I’ve done.
