Could use some tips on software choices based off my project goals

Hi all,
So I’ve pulled the trigger, I’ve picked the red pill and down the CNC rabbit hole I go. I ordered the Altmill and hence my wait time begins, which is not a terrible thing as it gives me time to fully prep and study. I have a very specific project in mind so here’s some of the ideas and parameters floating around in my head…

  1. Create cabinets in 3d form with specific cuts will feature rabbets, holes for hinges and shelves, that can be disassembled and laid out in a 4x4 or 4x8 form (tiling might have to be a thing for me depending on cuts).
  2. While creating cabinets create an organized sensical library of components with parameters that can be changed that will automatically change other part dimensions should they be affected. The idea is to invest time designing a base cabinet that can be modified for different dimensions easily.
  3. Choose a design. Find a png file etc with a simple art design (see uploaded picture for example) load it into the CAM software and scale it appropriately to fit the frame of a cabinet door. This will become a design that get will be filled with dyed resin and then planed off later with the cnc once it’s dried.

Now. Keep in mind I am a beginner, but this is the end goal I’m shooting for in around a year. That being said I plan on practicing by making garage shop cabinets first and then kid bathroom cabinets so on so forth until I’m ready to do this final magus opus level project in our kitchen.

If you were doing this project, what type of software - design and CAM - would you recommend learning and why? Lately I’ve been using sketchupPro and designed our house from the ground up. It feels pretty intuitive, it’s got quick easy to understand hotkeys,


and best of all you can check out what you make inside a VR headset, which is low key kind of amazing. I know people ask what type of software to learn in general, but I hope being specific like this with a project in mind helps

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Disclaimer: I am no cadcam expert. I come from working with electronics. The closest I have come doing CAD/CAM work prior owning a cnc was using Microsoft Paint, the old version. Take everything I say with a salt lake.

I have only worked with Vectric desktop pro and lightburn for laser jobs. This means I am not biased, for to be biased you need to have at least knowledge of the other side. I have not. This makes me a realy bad advisor on anything you ask. So the only thing I can offer is showing you the workflow on how you would be able to accomplish your goals on vectric.

Enough about me knowing nothing, lets see if we can somehow make vectric do what you like.

  1. 3D form creating, like drawing a box and work from that. I may be wrong but that is not what vectric software does. Prety much everything goes in 2D or at most 2.5D. (maybe a rotary can be seen as 3D work but that isn’t a cabinet so I disgard that as not usefull. I have not created cabinets and the likes. My work has been 2D/2.5D. So, I guess I am stuck with your #1.

However, you mentioned designing inSketchup, and I took that as my hold on and did some research as to integrate that design programm into vectric and came up with the tutorial below. It’s mul;ti parts but I think the one linked here is enough to show you can combine sketchup with vectric in a usefull way. I bet other design software might too.

2 changing parameters. This can be done in a few ways. If all you need is scaling the complete cabinet, you can do it this way:

However, this may affect offsets that you might not want to scale.
You can create a template library as you go and resize like this:

  1. Find a png file and have it in vectric to play with is prety straight forward. Here is a basic laydown of how its done:

Here’s howto trace parts of a bitmap:

Ultimately you want toolpaths. So what can vectric do for you there.

I have forgotten the reason I went with vectric over other software, but I think one of the reasons was that you can find a ton of tutorials for it. Having no CAD/CAM experiance under my belt, that must have been one of the deal makers.

I think these videos cover prety much everything you need to know to use it making cabinets minus perhaps your desire to select one part and have it automaticly scale other parts with it. That went waaaay over my head.

I outlined my software choices in your other post but I’ll repeat here. Mind you, I haven’t done any carves yet since I only received my Altmill a few weeks ago and I still don’t have my spindle. So my experience is only based on 4 months of playing around with software.

I guess a starting point is budget.

Second would be the types of carves you plan to make, e.g. 2D, 2.5D, rotary, laser. Your cabinets and inlays are strictly 2D.

Third would be your ability to learn and patience level.

I’m a retired IT guy with an engineering background so my ability to learn is high, my budget is somewhat higher now than it would have been 20 years ago, and my patience level is getting lower as I age and don’t want to deal with any BS from quirky software.

So after trying both free and trial-versions of paid software, I eventually settled on VCarve Pro for CAM. For CAD, I use qCAD, which is a fork of Libre CAD. And for simple 2.5D modeling, I use Fusion Personal Edition.

Here is some of my rationale:

Fusion (free): excellent software that can do it all, even creating g-code. But steep learning curve if you don’t have any 3D experience. I’ll use it to create STL models, but not for creating the toolpaths.

Plasticity (low cost): nice 3D modeling application but it can’t import DXF files. That was a dealbreaker for me. So I stopped my trial after that.

Blender (free): very complex 3D software intended for 3D animation. I only use it to create depth maps of pictures using the True Depth add-on (low cost)

Inkscape (free): vector graphics application. Might be useful for the inlays you want to create. Upload a picture and trace the outline.

qCAD (low cost): nice 2D drawing application. I already own it because I do architectural drawings for the cottage renovations I’m doing. It’s indispensable to me as a starting point for all my CAD work. It also does image trace and can create toolpaths for 2D work but it is limited.

Vectric vCarve Pro ($$$). Can do 2D and 2.5D CAD and CAM to various levels. 2D work can be done quite easily from A to Z. But I think its CAD functionality is surpassed by qCAD, hence why I use it. 2.5D work can be done by importing models from the Vectric library or making your own STL files (I use Fusion). You can only import one STL model in a project. Vectric Aspire, which is $$$$$ and which I didn’t even try, can do more 2.5D work. VCarve excels at creating toolpaths. Ultimately, that’s why I chose it.

So my workflow is as follows:

  1. Start with qCAD for 2D designs, Fusion for creating models, Blender for creating depth maps, or Inkscape for image manipulation.
  2. Import whatever I created in step 1 into vCarve to complete the project, create the toolpaths, and create the g-code
  3. Send to gSender to control the CNC
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Some of what I’m gonna say may be obvious stuff you already know but you said your new and I don’t know what you know. It’s an attempt to be thorough is all.

From what you have shown and described all of your work is based of 2D like @Chucky_ott said.

While most or all of your CNC work will be 3D when finished there are two ways to get there. One would be to use a 3D format like STL which would work for almost anything but would be slower than 2D based milling. So you’ll only want 3D models if you can’t do it 2D.

If you wanted your tree to be proud of the surface with detail on the Z axis you’d need to go the 3D route.

The tree filled with epoxy and planed later would best be done with a v-bit and a v-carve in my opinion. The only software I’ve used to make a v-carve is Vectric VCarve but other programs can do it. The v-carve method will allow you to have small details without using really tiny bits. The caveat being that smaller, skinny, parts may not be as deep as the other parts. Depending on how translucent your epoxy is that could be an issue.

So I think your requirements are:

  • 2D parametric CAD software
  • CAM software capable of creating a v-carve from a 2D vector outline
  • Software to control the mill

As I’m sure you know this could be all in one program or a separate program for each part of the process. I’m mostly familiar with free programs, with VCarve being a notable exception.

Blender (free): An awesome, massive beast of a program capable of many things. Model by vertices, edges and faces. Use sculpting tools to create a model like it was out of clay. Create animations in 2D or 3D using skeletal rigging and or key frames. Analyze a video to determine where the camera was in 3D space and then use the video editor to put your creation in the existing video. That’s just the things I have played with. It has been used by professionals in movies and television so it’s quite capable but hard to learn. I also think it’s best suited to organic modeling and doesn’t excel at parametric modelling and has no CAM but maybe the BlenderCAM and CADSketcher addons I mentioned in the other thread change that. It does have a node editor and access to Python scripting so parametric modeling could be done that way. If your not familiar with node editing, in this context, it’s a system of visual programming. A node performs some operation like scale, or translate and they are connected with wires so the output of one node can be the input to another and so on.

Fusion 360 (free or paid): I’ve used the CAD part of Fusion (free version) before but never the CAM part. It’s very capable and I didn’t think it was that hard to learn the CAD part. You can do mesh modeling in it but the part I used the most was sketch based modeling. You create a 2D sketch and then you can pull (extrude) the sketch into 3D. Once to have an object you can then create a sketch on any face and pull or push that sketch to add or subtract from the model. The sketches can make use of a constraint system. This line must be tangent to that circle. This angle must be 20 degrees etc. Things like that. It also has a parametric system where you can assign values to variables, using functions or formulas to calculate the values etc. I’ve never used the CAM part of F360. I have a feeling it’s very good, but looked complicated in comparison to VCarve. I didn’t dig into it because you can’t use free Fusion for anything you sell anymore so I stopped using for the most part.

Vectric VCarve (paid): Easy to learn, at least compared to the above. Decent 2D design program, but like @Chucky_ott said there are better dedicated 2D programs. Where I think it excels is ease of use for both design and toolpath creation in one package. Granted, the only two programs I have used to create toolpaths with is VCarve and FreeCAD. Of the two VCarve seemed easier to me. The other problem is, unless I’m missing something, it’s not parametric unless you use gadgets. If you program you can make gadgets in VCarve Pro or Aspire. A gadget is a LUA script.

FreeCAD (free): Kinda like a poor mans Fusion. It has workbenches for 2D and 3D modeling, CAM, sketching with a restraint solver etc. It also can use Python scripting. It can be kinda buggy sometimes in my experience but it gets better all the time and I haven’t used it in a couple years. FreeCAD can do parametric modeling in a way similar to Fusion.

OpenSCAD (free): A programmers CAD application and my personal favorite! Everything is done in code except for viewing and exporting the result which could be 2D or 3D. Since everything is done in code it can all be parametric. It uses it’s own programming language and excels at constructive solid geometry, using boolean operations to add, subtract, intersect objects. So, while you do need to program to use OpenSCAD, you end up creating “an organized library of components with parameters” almost by default and the language is pretty easy to start programming if you never have. OpenSCAD is pretty niche but it can be great if you have the right skill set to make use of it.

Several of the programs I mentioned can make use of scripting. Not knowing if you know anything about programming I’ll mention what that means. Most if not all of the programs I mentioned are written in C++ which is a massive, complex, compiled, hard to master language capable of making just about any program. Programs will sometimes incorporate a scripting language that can use parts of the C++ code from a friendlier interpreted language (doesn’t need compilation). You can use scripting to create new tools and user interface elements etc.

All said I recommend VCarve, with a dedicated 2D CAD for parametric design, or Fusion with gSender to control the mill. Blender could be worth learning if you wanted to use it for more than CNC or wanted to be able to sell things without buying software but I haven’t used the mentioned addons and newish node systems enough to know how capable the CAM and parametric modeling is. All of my recommendations have large communities with forums, and good documentation for learning.

I hope some of this long read is worth your time. It’s hard to be concise as the topic is vast.

Michael

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@_Michael @Chucky_ott , Thankyou for the detailed responses, I wasn’t expecting soo much information but am very thankful. So, if I may kinda gather my thoughts here…

Vcarve sounds like a pretty common theme I keep hearing about. I guess I need to look into what the difference is between the pro and desktop version unless someone wants to comment on that. It also looks like Vcarve accepts all different types of formats, one of which is SKP, which is what Sketchup uses. I currently have sketchupPro for a year, so I might just use that in the meantime for my 3d modeling while I have the subscription active. Qcad might be a good transition software though if/when I get tired of paying for sketchup.

There’s a couple things Michael mentioned that kind of attract me, Blender and OpenSCAD. I have several friends familiar with Blender and my son is picking it up while he’s on summer break. QpenSCAD sounds tempting. Its been a while since my college programming forays, but as long as it’s not C++, I think I can enjoy it.

weirdly, I haven’t really had any excuses to get into 2d modeling, so I’m very thankful on the suggestions for that, will definitely give inkscape a go of it.

All in all, very productive post and it looks like I have a lot to think about. Much appreciated gentlemen.

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@Mohjo You would do well to go onto the Vectric site and compare vcarve desktop and pro. There are several. You can download and use trial versions of any vectric software. The limitation is that you can only create toolpaths for their sample projects.
One good thing about their pricing model is that if you start with desktop for example and decide to upgrade to pro, you get the full purchase price of desktop as a credit towards the cost of pro.

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Exactly what I did. My machine is on order so I wont purchase VCarve until after it arrives.

Wee! I’m pleasantly surprised that your interested in OpenSCAD. You can get a taste for the language and judge it’s size with this cheat sheet and get more details when needed from the manual. It’s a pretty small language and lacks some of the primitives you’d get with another program but you can generally make or find missing things. I looked up the formula for Bezier curves and a couple of functions later I could generate a list of points to make a polygon for example.

I need to get busy and try out those addons for Blender. It really is a great program. It started as an in house solution and then the creator gave it to the world for free. Now it’s a great example of what OpenSource can achieve. It’s almost unrecognizable compared to what it was when I first discovered it. Knowing some people that use it could give you a leg up if you go that route.

EDIT: @Mohjo I forgot to mention that I made an OpenSCAD program to make metric nuts and bolts. It may not be the cleanest code but it works well enough and demonstrates some of what can be done.

EDIT2: @Mohjo You mentioned giving Inkscape a look and while I have and like it, I’m not sure it’s the right tool for parametric work. I could be wrong on that as I don’t use it often. Might be worth checking out LibreCAD (free and open source) for 2D which is what qCAD was forked from.

I would use cabinet sense software for the cabinets. It is a plug-in for sketch up pro and since you already have experience with sketchup, pro, that seems to be a good fit.

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/facepalm. Of course they would have some kind of plugin for cabinets! oh and @Spamming_Eddie, thankyou so much for taking the time to dig up all those resources, much appreciated! I’ve been too busy this weekend to do much homework but come this week looks like I got a lot of videos and resources to spend time with

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