Looking at taking the plunge

[Greener]

Hey Everyone, I’ve been lurking around the last few weeks after I got the goofy idea in my brain I needed one of these machines. Having looked at a few of the other options in the market (Shapeoko, Onefinity primarily) I feel like this is the most likely solution. But there’s a few things I’m having issues getting some clarity on and hoping those with some experience can help fill in the gaps. For reference I’m eyeballing this as an even mix of business/personal purchase, looking to hopefully make a bit of side income, maybe pay for a vacation/year or buy a bit more freedom from the regular day job as it were. Use cases would be primarily wood, custom signs, some relief carvings and such, could definitely see me experimenting with acrylic a bit with light up signs and maybe a bit of dabbling with aluminum/brass if I find a particularly catching project.

1. Total consideration of costs. Please note this is all in Canadian dollars. The longmill beginners kit at 30x48" is currently the winner, I feel as though the opportunity to potentially do some longer projects is worth extra upfront cost. With the beginners kit, shipping, some T tracks, a few hundred for lumber to build a table, a Home Depot 5 gallon bucket dust collector to attach to my shop vac along with a small handful of tools (calibers, squares, etc) and a vortex, I feel like I’m hitting 4.5-5k CDN. Do you feel as though that’s reasonably accurate value? Am I missing anything obvious? Eventually I feel like a used windows laptop and a copy of vectric pro will be purchased but will try and hold off on that until necessary.

2. trying to find information regarding tooling options for the Long-mill. Just want to confirm that I can outfit a laser, diamond drag, or etcher if I decide to expand my capabilities? If I wish to get into laser etching things, Sienci no longer offers a laser by the looks of things, just accessories. Which lasers are readily available is everyone using?

3. Table designs: I found the post detailing a few of the amazing designed built by the community members but I didn’t see much in the way of links to build plans. Wondering if there was any fan favourite options for pre made table choices or easily modifiable options that can also break down easily for transport in the future (Mill would be setup in the basement, breaking down into smaller manageable pieces and ability to be hauled up/down stairs is critical). I can definitely fab something up but not having access to a jointer or planer I will have to take some extra time and consideration for the table (and lets be honest, the table is just extra ‘work’ before you get to the fun part!).

4. Training costs, by this I mostly mean lumber and bits. Learning is a never ending process but at the beginning the muck ups will be far more frequent. What was your favourite learning material? I don’t have a large supply of cut offs and such I can pull from so my mistakes will be paid for upfront unfortunately lol. I suspect the goldi locks of cheap, easy and quick, doesn’t apply and it’s a pick 2 situation here I’m guessing. Project boards from big box stores or construction grade lumber surfaced before hand as I play with settings the way to go?

I know this was a lot but any guidance would be appreciated as it’s a fairly sizeable jump into a big unknown (for me). Thanks again!

[beerbarrel]

A lot of questions here. I dont know that I can answer any but here goes. I currently own a Shapeoko XXL. It’s been a good machine. I have had electronics issues. Controller boards failed, Inductive pick ups fail often…I had to get 3 spindles before I got one that worked correctly…the spindles were all under warranty. Customer service is awesome. I still use the machine. I decided to upgrade…I looked at the Shapeoko 5 pro, the OneFinity and the Altmill. I ordered the Onefinity Journeyman at somewhere around 8K US. I started asking general questions about aftermarket options on Onefinity’s forums. The mods there kept locking my posts. It seems that they dont like you to talk about any products except theirs. I asked them why they kept closing my posts and they responded with “we answered your question but no explanation” I then asked them if their customer service was anything like their mods control on there forum and I might have to cancel my order. They responded by cancelling my order and refunding my order in like 3 minutes. I was kinda flabbergasted, They then kicked me off their forum. That was about the gist of it. The next day I saw cutting it closes’s video comparing the Altmill to the Onefinity. I then figured out that OneFinity had really done me a favor. Im about 4 weeks in to my AltMill order. Less money and a better machine…I still have a soft spot in my heart for Shapeoko. They area a good company to deal with but in my opinion they and behind on the quailty compared to the scenci stuff…I know this is not much but I think you are at the best company anyway…

[Greener]

Thanks for the insight, I’ve ran across similar things echoed elsewhere regarding customer service of the other companies. Shapeoko was a close second for me. Hopefully you get your altmill soon! Was also looking at that but between the wait times, my impatience and cost for a new hobby (even though the value is obvious) is just a bit too much lol.

[Chucky_ott]

Don’t forget the CAD/CAM software and the computer to create your g-code. Some are free, some are subscription-based, some have a perpetual licensing model.

Vectric vCarve Pro would cost you about $900 for a perpetual license.

Also consider the power requirements. Perhaps not an issue with the Longmill, which will use a router. But a spindle should have a dedicated circuit.

Any reason you are not considering the Altmill? Once you factor in the add-ons, the price difference becomes less important.

[Spamming_Eddie]

Olaz Greener,

Welcome to the forum, the place to be to gain knowledge and goofballs. The latter signing in right now. Hi.

Nice introduction, great essay raising good points. You are walking the line for some time aren’t you?
I have done so myself a few years back when I got jumped by the goofy idea that I needed one of these machines I saw people tube these amazing projects on. I too went back and forth between wonky and expancive untill I found Sienci and their well built, reasonable priced products. Didn’t take long after that to cut the rope and learn to sail on the fly.

I went for a longmill 48" with laserbeam, a few starter bit sets (still using most of the more robust ones that didn’t snap that easy) and an auto toutch plate. That set me back roughly 5kcad including vat and import tarrifs into the EU.

Since you dont have to deal with those, you’re cost estimate for the setup you have in mind seems pretty close to me.

The longmill is a pretty good startyouupper with plenty of power (even with the makita router) to make a puch. I personaly am glad that when I needed to choose, the altmill wasn’t an option yet for I would have broken it or me with it.
The lessons I learned with my longmill were exciting, somewhat dangerous but never accute. The altmill is another beast.

So the one thing I am missing in your setup plans is the one thing that was missing in mine when I got going. Safety. You see, when things go sideways (there’s no if here.) they do that fast and furious, requiring direct action. That action, in the basic setup, requires you to rush towards a machine that is or is about to go beastmode on ya, in order to push a button -at the cage- that will stop it from moving, but not from spinning. Unless you make sure the e-stop cuts power to your makita, the danger part of your machine keeps going to spin at xteenthousand rpm untill you reach over and switch it off - 3 inch from the spinning cutter head.
My first hickup left me wanting to not go near the machine, let alone the makita. It was dragging my project up and down the machine bed with the makita stuck, no longer spinning, but bound to spring free at any moment with a possible bent surfacing bit in its chuck. It choose to belch out a cloud of smoke and kill the circuit breakers instead, leaving me in the dark - releaved. This experiance prompet me to install a seperate circuit breaker for the machine and the makita to trip at a lower amperage and to install a switch away from the machine that would kill all power to these circuit breakers, if needed. I have used it a few times now, mostly to prevent the machine to run a bit into clampings. (I watch the machine via a security cam in my office - where my kill switch resides.)

1. If I would urge you to invest into something, it is to implement a safety feature that is capable of killing the entire machine, not just part of it - on your way out.

Worth every Canadian penny, I promise.

2. Just for comfirmation sake and not to direct you to just this one webshop, youy can find most of your mentions besides a laser on here:

Shark Tooth Drawing/Writing Tool For CNC Routers, 1/4 Shank – IDC Woodcraft

Stunning Detail Diamond Drag Engraving Bit for CNC Routers, 1/4" Shank – IDC...

The reason why I direct to idc woodcraft is because the owner has a channel using these tool on a longmill, breaking it down for you step by step. That might be helpfull, no?

How To Write With Your CNC Machine

How To Engrave Glass On a CNC Router [With A Drag Bit], Glass Etching

The laser units, I cannot expand much on. I own the laserbeam and I feel it’s a bit an odd one out. There are a ton of topics on other brands on this forum though. Most are waaaay more powerfull than mine, yet I personaly think power isn’t the thing to ~focus~ on. You have a cnc router - it cuts.

So look at dpi, focal length, focal depth, seperate lenses and compatibility, before staring yourself blind on -cutting- power.

3. Table design. Oh my, nowe there’s a rabbit hole. Here’s some clues. It does not need to be level, nor square. You want a flat surface and a rigid frame and the machine to fit.
   Extra perks could be: Casters, to move your machine around. Free forth and backside for larger tiling jobs. (you think 48inch will be enough for a sign? At first, sure, but sometime in the future you will thank yourself for being able to feed through larger stock.)

Foir ideas on table designs: looky here:

What are your plans for a table?

Hi, guys. I’m bound and determined to get some discussion going here, so here’s another topic that’s been weighing on my mind. What do you intend to mount your new LongMill to? Like most of us, I assume, I have a small two car garage that I like to park my car in, so space is at a premium. Greg posted this video on facebook the other day, and I just about talked myself into building this myself. The issue is, when I actually started looking into where I would put it in the garage, I realized…

4. Training costs. The short answer is jup, there will be.
   The long one is, it’s a two way street. My first cuts where in some PIR isolation. You know, the sheep from sienci. I figured I could not break a bit in that material. And that is true. For the rest, the material sucks and I stepped right up to pine, for I figures that because it’s a softer wood, I would get better results. I did this for quite some time before I stepped up to harder wood and to my supprise, hard woods cut waaaaay more cleanly, waay more satisfying with waaaaaay less sanding work needed after using the cnc.

If I would give a tip on how to cut costs on your learning curve it would be - get some affordable hardwood planks like padouk or Angelim vermelho that has good specs on cutting machines and start making signs and bowl like products out of that using 0.25" end mills, Vbits and bowl bits. You know, the kind that don’t break when you look at them angry.

Don’t get me wrong, You can do the learning curve that is cncing on pine just fine, but boy, does a fine wood give a different fibe. And at the end of the day, the cost of -say- a sign is not in the wood. It’s in the time it takes to carve, sand and finnish. So sure, do some pine work, but don’t hessitate too long to up your game. You will see, feel and smell the difference without upping the risk much. Wood is pretty much wood on a longmill.

Hell, you could even visit a trift shop and get an old limpy oak table for a buck to strip down and try your bits on.

[Chucky_ott]

I too wasn’t even thinking about getting a CNC. I was on another forum when Sienci’s marketing manager posted about the naming contest for their router (now called Auto Spin). I took a look at their web site and got the bug. I was impressed by Sienci’s open-source mentality and the quality of their product. What a great way to keep me busy during the winter months. After much research on machines from other companies, I decided to get the Longmill. After sitting on it longer, I changed my mind and got the Altmill. I should be getting it this week or next.

Before I changed my mind for the Altmill, I had done a price comparison. A lot of the add-ons you will need are the same for both the Longmill and the Altmill. This includes software, tools, dust extraction, computer, etc. As I stated in my previous post, the more add-ons you add, the less the important the price difference between the Longmill and Altmill becomes.

Eddie is right about safety. When I was doing my research, I realised that some projects can last many hours. At the time, I told myself, I’ll leave a job running over night or while I go cut the lawn. But then I saw some videos on what can happen when things go wrong. Your CNC is a fast machine. A work piece that becomes loose, an object in the path of your router/spindle, or bad g-code can create big problems quick. Just the fast-spinning collet rubbing against a piece of lumber can cause a fire pretty fast. Suck in those embers into your dust collection system and now you have a real issue. So now, I will no longer leave a job unattended. And I’ll have a smoke detector, fire extinguisher, and easily accessible emergency stop.

And never ever put you hand close to the bed when a job is running. The CNC is faster than you are.

[gwilki]

@Greener Welcome to the group.

You’ve already received lots of information to digest. I suspect that you will receive much more over time. I’ll just add a little to it.

1. “Longer projects”. Keep in mind that the 48" is width, not length on the LongMill. You can do wider projects with it than you can with the 30" version, but you cannot do longer ones. You say that you will buy a laptop eventually. I assume that means that you have something on hand now to control the Long Mill.
2. You can add a laser module and a diamond drag with no issue.
3. There are many elaborate table designs among the members here. Mine is not one of them. You may want to re-think the idea of being able to haul your table and the Long Mill up and down stairs.
   When designing your table, think of future-proofing it with features like vertical holding and using a rotary axis. I didn’t do that, so my table is a mish mash of added on capabilities.
   Also keep in mind size. I have a 30x30 Long Mill. My table top is 48x48. I would not want it any smaller. Many go larger.
4. My favourite material for learning and prototyping is pink rigid foam. It’s not as inexpensive as it was pre-covid, but it’s not bad. It’s easy to transport, available in various thicknesses and easy on the machine.

[Greener]

Thanks for all the great input! Hopefully I can touch on all the points before my brain screams squirrel lol. I apologize for the second incoming novel lol.

To touch on why I’m looking at the Longmill rather than the alt mill are a handful of reasons. @Chucky_ott

1. Cost- I’m really good at upselling myself and convincing myself that I need those extra features/higher quality things. I’m also really good at buying shiny things and moving on quickly. Is the altmill a tempting option, absolutely, but even after it’s all said and done I’ll be looking at roughly an extra 2.5-3k. I’ll be looking to try and pay off the Longmill relatively quickly (in terms of work output), if down the road and I find I need the altmill, I feel as though it would be because a second machine would be of value in general. There will be some logistics to figure out, like having to give up the garage parking with the -40c winters, and finding storage for the seasonal car. If I’m destined for the alt mill, it will no longer be a question of paying off a machine, it will be a question of buying a house with a stand alone shop lol (dreams right? Lol).
2. Complete package- currently Sienci is unable to offer a spindle in Canada as they are in the process of getting recertified from my understanding, which means I now need to source a compatible spindle on top of the other things I’m trying to wrap my brain around.
3. Power supply- basement is unfinished with limited power, I have installed a dedicated 20 amp circuit in the ‘room’ where the machine will be, and may install another circuit for accessories though I have power ran from my mechanical room for lights and light accessories. Space in general would be snug.
4. Critical character flaws- I’m impatient, if I decide to pull the pin I will want it and want it now. With the Alt mill being the new hotness and the supply chains still being ironed out it looks like I’m looking at a couple months at the least before I would receive mine.

Software: Regarding the software side of things, from my very surface level look it appears as though Vectric pro would be the ideal candidate, relatively affordable, perpetual license, seems to be widely used and well regarded and has the advanced features I would eventually be looking to utilize. Unfortunately at the moment I don’t have a windows laptop, so a Mac option would be required and would likely use Carbide 3d to get started while I scope out sales and used market for a laptop. Alternatively I do have a well equipped windows desktop, if I could do the work on that and then send it to the MacBook and use g sender to drive the longmill if I’m understanding everything correctly? I did look at Fusion 360, however their free personal use is limited by an income cap of $1300/year give or take. Would they find out if I used it anyway? Unlikely, but if I don’t need to then I won’t (also sounds like a steep learning curve so until the need arises I don’t see myself pursuing it).

@Spamming_Eddie Safety! Absolutely great points to bring up. I do have a background in industrial facilities and mechanical equipment, I also work with manual machinists who do love to regale me with the many horror stories of missing limbs and rotating equipment, but big differences in working materials! Metal chips don’t tend to catch on fire when exposed to friction and heat lol. Also appreciate the idea of having a kill switch for the router, I do recall realizing that the router would maintain operation if something went wrong but quickly got lost in the wave of other more interesting considerations and ideas. I will definitely look to rig up a couple options for kill switches, have a fire extinguisher, and running the machine on its own was never an option in my mind. Regarding longer run time projects, I presume there is a ‘hold’ or ‘pause’ button for a job? IE knock out a big job a few hours at a time in the evenings?

Thanks for the links for the bits, I’m familiar with IDC woodcraft from watching literal hours of videos over the last couple of weeks, but can’t say I’ve spent any time checking out their store just yet.

Table Build: Building it for stairs is simply planning for a house upgrade in 4.5 years when my mortgage comes up for renewal so I can extract it from the current house with relative efficiency. Carriage bolts for removable legs, lack of glue in the assembly, perhaps a modular setup so it can tear down and setup within a few hours is what I’m thinking. It would be a singular trip, definitely not plural.

@gwilki What considerations would I want for the rotary axis? I have a few projects in mind for that and it’s in my cart alongside everything else.
What you mean by vertical holding? Do you mean having the table top pivot so that the longmill is vertical? If so, I have definitely looked at that and considering how to implement that, though I suspect for the first few years the table setup will be fairly spartan. Regarding the length vs width, Is that not just a change in perspective? My verbiage was incorrect, but could I not simply rotate the piece to make use of the longer axis? Likewise with the 48” does that not allow me to feed through something like a sheet of plywood and ‘Tile’ larger projects? While I don’t foresee a way to be able to do that in my basement at the moment, desperation can certainly lead to innovation, or most likely I’ll simply be resigned to parking on the driveway moving forward if that event/need arises lol.

Thanks again everyone for the ideas and feedback, also sorry for the longwinded nonsense lol.

[Spamming_Eddie]

Hi Greener,

Keep your epistles comming, I enjoy them greatly.

I have a dedicated pc at my machine that runs gsender. A nice perk gsender has is the remote function. A web based semi clone that you can access on any device that can run a browser.

I have a remote open at my design pc in my office and load up toolpaths from there to my machine, and if convident about my settings, start from my office aswell. I don’t need to be at the machine to load her up. It is stable, no quirks (running on my pc), is fully functional and helps keeping an eye on the machine while designing the next project. I do recommend a bit wider screen. My 49"" has just enough space to run the gsender clone, a vectric screen and the camera feed from the machine.

On the table problem. When I made my table, I didn’t know what I needed either so I went with a turnable table that could snuk to the wall but also turn into the with of my space to allow large feed through. I also didn’t want the machine to be permanent on the table either, so it is bolted down its own slab of mdf, free to be lifted of the table and moved anywhere without it.

This could be a consideration for you aswell. If you can move the machine and chainsaw the table, you’re pretty much good to go. Yes you need a new table at your new home but if needed that can be an old diner table, or even on the floor. Untill you make your table 2.0 with all the features you wished 1.0 had.

If you can move your machine up the stairs in one piece, you’re done.

On vectric pro. It is awesome. Can’t go wrong with it.

[Greener]

Appreciate the notes about your setup, has definitely given me some more things to think about. It sounds like I could use vectric on my desktop PC, export it or remotely send it and or run it off the Mac at the mill. Alternatively I could use parallels but they’ve moved to a sub only model and in my experience there were some weird hiccups with software on the older ones (back when Macs were still x86/intel based). I don’t think I’ll ever get a setup as fancy as yours with the remote camera and such, but who knows what will happen down the road.

Regarding the table I think it will be a K.I.S.S. situation. I’ll throw some 2x4’s together, have the legs, braces and lower shelf attached with carriage bolts, have a plywood top and then mount everything to a sheet of MDF on top and have everything mounted there as you suggest. In the future when I build table 2.0 I can split table 1.0 into an in and out feed tables for the future shop that I’m totally gonna have

I guess all that’s left is too crack out the credit card and start the process and get going

[Spamming_Eddie]

Ohohoh before you go, don’t forget to order some extra consumeables like anti backlash nuts, chucks for yer makita, v-wheels and makita brushes.

I know you didn’t ask for bit advise so excuse me for having a dry cough

Cough coughquarterichupcut coughandadowncut coughbowlbits coughcoughvbits coughtaperedballnose cough.

Daaim, that cough is nasty!

[ApexWoodworks]

Chucky, the Vectric VCarve Pro license is not perpetual in all regards; whenever they come up with a major upgrade (as they did when moving from version 11 to 12 recently) there is an upgrade bill if you wish to upgrade to the newest version. If you opt not to do so, then there is no additional cost… but you’re left with the older version. I decided after taking a look at what the new version offered and although it cost me approximately $400 Canadian, the upgrade was worth it to me. That having been stated, I consider Vectric VCarve Pro to be the best CAD program on the market for my needs. Sorry for jumping in here, but I thought it best to clear the air on this issue.

Cheers,
Marty from Kingston, ON

[Chucky_ott]

Correct. It is perpetual in the sense that it will not expire and you can use the purchased major version forever. But there would be an upgrade cost if you decide to upgrade to the next major version.

[ApexWoodworks]

Grant,

As regards “longer” projects, if the bed is 48" X 30", depending on what the size of the job you’re doing, if you can place it diagonally, then you can work with longer pieces.
Example: a 52 1/2" X 3" piece can be worked on within that space.

I used to own a Longmill MK 1 (31" X 31") spoilboard size and made chairs on it (see attached photo). That job required me to lay the rear legs diagonally. It worked. I guess the adage “where there’s a will, there’s a way” applied in this case.

[ApexWoodworks]

(I’d entered a rather lengthy post cautioning you against making a tabletop light enough to move up and down stairways, but after reading your second post where you explained that it was only to do so if you sell your current home, I deleted it)

Cheers,

Marty from Kingston, ON

[gwilki]

@ApexWoodworks Agreed and understood, Marty. Love the chair, too.

I was only replying to @Greener post where he talked about longer projects. I may have misunderstood his comment. I took it to mean that he went with the 30x48 so that he could do longer projects than he could do on the 30x30. I merely wanted to explain that the 48 was in X, not Y.

[Greener]

@Spamming_Eddie You might want to see a doctor about that cough! I’ll be grabbing the beginners kit which includes most of what you’ve mentioned, but I will make sure to add a bowl bit into the order to round out the bunch, as well as wear components, though I might wait a month or two before I add the consumables to get over the shock of the initial purchase

Valid points about Vectric licensing and the upgrade fee’s. Think the important aspect of that is that it is ultimately your decision to upgrade or not, and you don’t lose access to the software because you decide that you don’t need those features and upgrades. If you take the upgrade price of $400 CDN mentioned that works out to $16.67/month over 2 years. I spend more per month on Spotify and Netflix each. I believe I read on their website that they aim for a 2 year release cycle for major updates, and if you buy within a year of an upgrade you will get the upgrade for free (not sure if that applies to upgrades or not however), I can’t argue with that and it’s more than fair. Not sure if anyone has any experience with that at all?

@ApexWoodworks I like that chair! I can’t imagine how much extra effort it took to try and get those legs cut at an angle I’ve been contemplating a new kitchen table and chairs and definitely has me thinking about what I might be able to incorporate with the mill!

[JeffMcL]

Reading through your spec and aspirations for your return on investment in a Longmill I have to comment based upon my own experience with a Mk 2.5 over the last year.

1. This is a hobbyist machine. Money is being made with it by the hardy few, certainly, but go into it with your eyes open. The break in period with the very funky anti backlash and “tight but not too tight” V-wheel tensioning is really fairly half-ass. I spent significant time try to resolve binding on the X-axis that resulted in the ruin of many real $$ of material. Even today, after successfully running the machine on 3D carves for 8+ hours during the days prior, loading it up to complete a 3D finish pass bound up on the X-axis and ruined over 3 hours of roughing. I was able to salvage the work with some creative effort but had this been a commercial effort i would be out the material, the design time and the machine time. Not a viable business proposition.
2. This machine now owns my shop. Between the physical space requirment, the dust control, and the noise of both, plan on getting it flat and level with a spoilboard square with the tram and don’t think about moving it, This thing is a screaming beast you need to be present to monitor as either through user error or its “maker shop” build quality you need to be available for when the plunge of the router jams on the 3D printed dust control cowling or one axis or the other binds or your piece cuts loose, you have to be there.
3. I looked seriously at the Onefinity and in retrospect, wish I’d gone that route. At an extra $2k beyond the Mk2.5 it was too far bridge for me last year. Had I known what a brutal learning curve the beta-quality of gSender would put me through in addition to the “Is it software bug or is it a hardware
   Flub” the physical machine has put me through, well, hard to say but Ive easily spent $2k in aggravation on this. I have made some beautiful work with this machine but it’s now like a hormonal partner. We get along great, until we don’t.
   Best of luck with your buying decisions.

[Greener]

Meant to reply to this a couple days ago but life has been a bit busy. Valid points regarding your issues. I certainly have no illusions about this being a painless process or anything more than a hobby machine, but not looking to turn this into a ‘job’ either beyond paying back the machine and some vacation money type thing. That is frustrating that you spent the difference in cost of machines on botched material though. I am certainly hoping a few other people can maybe expand and add their own stories of misery, the more you know right?

Do have a couple questions for the group. Is the longmill able to be retrofitted with closed loop motors? Having a quick browse online and it seems like it would be roughly $150-200 for a trio of closed loop nema 23 motors? I feel like I hear open source and longmill together relatively often, would those motors fit? Am I off base? Secondly, is the longmill able to cut its own waste board strips to fit inbetween T tracks? Or would I be better served by getting some track for the saw?

Thanks again!

[gwilki]

@Greener You would be well advised to contact Sienci about changing to close loop motors on the Long Mill. FWIW, I don’t believe you can do it with the stock long board controller. And, I believe that, even with the SLB, you cannot do it. You could do it with the SLB-ext, of course, but I don’t see them for sale yet.
The long mill can cut a spoilboard for t-track installation. As I have a table saw, I chose that as a much more efficient way of doing it. A track saw would also be much less hassle.